ekscrunchy

So many Americans and Canadians are buying or renting homes in the Schengen area for stays of a year or more. (I'm an avid HOUSE HUNTERS INTERNATIONAL watcher). How do these people get around the 90-day-stay requirements for Schengen? Many of them do not have a lot of money so I don't think they are getting those "golden visas" or anything similar. And many of them are self-employed so they are not getting help from an employer.

Just for fun, if I want to rent an apartment in Spain or Italy for a year, how would that work? Do I have to leave every 90 days and return?

Traveler_Nick

You could apply for a retirement visa. Not hugely demanding. I think about €30K in annual income.

Other than that? Qualify for citizenship. Go to university.

Maribel

You can stay 90 days in any 180 period.

I can certainly speak from recent experience for Spain.

In Spain currently there are 2 types of visas available for an American citizen,
the "Golden (or Investor's) Visa", which requires an investment in unencumbered real estate of 500,000 euros (w/o a mortgage). The visa is in one person's name and can include family members (spouse or partner, children...) It is valid for 3 years and can be renewed for an additional 2 years, then one can apply for permanent residency after 5 years.
The "Golden Visa" allows free movement within the Schengen area. And there is no minimum period of residence.

Or..a Non-Lucrative Visa (visado de residencia no-lucrativa), referred to just as the NLV, which is designed for retirees, that does not allow one to seek/have employment in Spain (no working or professional activity). You must prove that you have sufficient yearly income (28,800 euros or 2,400 euros per month), and one must secure Spanish private health insurance with no deductible (also in the case of the Golden Visa) and present an official health certificate from their personal physician.

There's also a Digital Nomad visa that I'm not familiar with.

For us it was absolutely imperative to use a top flight immigration law firm. The process is not easy or is it quick and requires a huge amount of documentation, all which must be officially translated, notarized, apostilled. It was a very long haul but absolutely worth it for us, but it was very stressful.

J62

For us this is the route with the most potential benefits, namely no visa required and an easier path to health insurance.

Even if you meet the criteria, the process can be arduous.

dfourh

You need to leave every 90 days but following those 90 then be GONE 90 days outside of Schengen (though you can break it up like in Schengen 45, out of Schengen 46; or in Schengen 60, out of Schengen 61 days, etc.). It's any 90 days within any 180 day period - - not 90 days, shopping at the IKEA in Milton Keynes followed by a pub crawl in Newton Pagnell, then back again for another 90 days. You essentially have to find yourself within Schengen for less than half the year, any year - - or else you need a residency visa and will also have to pay taxes in that country of residence. If you physically are in Schengen more than half the year they expect you to paying your share to support the civic services, public policies, and infrastructure, through taxes. Also, any calendar day you are present in Schengen, even if you depart at 6am, or arrive at 11:59pm, counts as a day in Schengen.

Maribel

ekscrunchy,
Before moving here to Spain when we secured our visa, we used this Schengen calculator to make sure we didn't exceed our limit, as we traveled back and forth 4 times a year.

kanadajin

ekscrunchy, you may find this blog very useful, from someone who has done just what you mention. In fact, many of his entries are quite interesting, ranging from health insurance, banking, paradors, drivers licence, taxes, empadronamiento, appartment/house hunting, and so on. I am always drooling over what they have managed to do, an inspiration for sure! I dream of doing this one day.

https://mappingspain.com/how-to-get-...by-step-guide/

Traveler_Nick

Just pointing out doing visa runs (AKA leaving every 90 days) while in theory legal can and likely will bite you sooner or later. If somebody notices they'll assume you're trying to get around the law.

bilboburgler

I have friends who drop in and out of the zone (France and UK) and have done for years. The law is there and is clear and as long as they obey the rules there is nothing any upset border staff can do about it.

Maribel

Exactly, so long as one obeys the rules and doesn't exceed the limit.

Traveler_Nick

If you believe that next time tell the border agent you're doing a visa run. That you're living in the country six months every year. See what happens.

Even if you had a visa the border agent can turn you away if they think you're not fulfilling the requirements. If you're living six months out of the year in a country are you really a tourist?

Ignoring the fact in many countries that would make you tax resident. Especially if you own a home.

hetismij2

People with second homes do it all the time, and not only in Europe.
The French are even changing their rules to accommodate Brits (and I assume others) with second homes. They are to issue a special permit for them.
One big problem for non Europeans settling in Europe is having to take a driving test if it is deemed their country's driving test is not strict enough. Most Americans would struggle with it I think.
Finding a bank happy to deal with the hassle of the IRS is another problem some face. Some companies have a problem with it too. When we rented a storage unit for a month we had to sign that we were not liable to US taxation.

janisj

That is not true. The law says (emphasis mine) 'up to 90 days in any 180 day period'. Just like he UK tells Yanks they can visit for ''up to six months . . . " Those are the maximums - and are not guaranteed. Nothing is guaranteed - and border agents can allow entrance for any length of time UP TO 90 days - or even possibly deny entry. Over the years I've had passport stamps in both Schengen and the UK which were for less than the maximum 90 days/six months respectively.

SusanP

I remember a case (granted, a long time ago, maybe 15 years ago), on my way back with delayed flights, talking to a woman who had been sent back from London even though she had taken proof of income, who had been denied entrance to the UK for an extended stay, less than the 90 days, and was sent back. As janis said, this is possible.

Traveler_Nick

I'd also point out those limits are for "tourism". If the border agent thinks you aren't a tourist all bets are off. Having a home you live in most of the year doesn't really sound like tourism.

ekscrunchy

Thanks, all. It's just a dream of mine that will likely not come to pass.....but then, who knows__. I have a small condo in Florida that, in a heartbeat, I will exchange for a place in Spain.

Maribel, I'm not sure you want to get into all this here, but what would one expect to pay for a one' bedroom flat, just a vague estimate, in Salamanca-Almagro-Chamberi_??

I'll just offer this info, for comparison. In this weeks New York Times, there is a 1 bed, 1 bath on the Lower East Side, 610 sq ft, but very polished, on sale for $1.15 million with common charges just over $1.000 a month. And a studio in the West Village-Nolita, 450 sq ft with a shared laundry, for $665.000, with monthly charges $1636 per month.


If you fancy the Bronx, in what used to be a fairly sketchy neighborhood (better now but not the stuff of dreams, by any means) Mott Haven, Walton Avenue near the courthouse and the Stadium, a one-bedroom, one bath, 750 sq ft place with shared laundry can be yours for $349,000 with monthly fee of only $875 a month.

Maribel

Hi eks,
"Maribel, I'm not sure you want to get into all this here, but what would one expect to pay for a one' bedroom flat, just a vague estimate, in Salamanca-Almagro-Chamberi_??"

A king's. ransom, a small fortune---says she who recently went through the Madrid flat hunting process. We were taken aback, as the prices are as high or in many cases higher than in Seattle in some of the most "desirable" neighborhoods that you list.

Because of the Golden Visa, there is a great deal of competition in those most "elite" areas by speculators and by very rich Latin Americans, especially from Venezuela and Mexico. Many articles have been written recently about very wealthy, high society Latin Americans who want to make Madrid the new Miami--those are the writers' words, not mine, as I have no inside scoop on that other than what I've read here--.

https://www.elmundo.es/yodona/actual...16b8b45cb.html
https://elpais.com/economia/negocios...mericanos.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-flood-market

Just look at www.idealista.com and put in one of those barrios in the search engine with your parameters for a 1 bed, 1 bath. I don't think that renovated flats (new bath, new kitchen w/top end appliances, exterior facing, a/c) can be had there for 500,000 euros, the minimum Golden Visa investment. For example, the average flat in Salamanca is going for around 7,000 euros per square meter, according to the El Mundo article. And our realtor said that he's never, ever been busier and that competition is absolutely fierce.

Our family's flat in the middle class Barrio de la Estrella, east of Retiro Park, with no underground garage (but a Mon-Fri doorman), charges 3,000 euros/month for fees (gastos de comunidad)

Here's a renovated 2 bed, 2 bath in Lista (Barrio de Salamanca) to give you an idea. James Edition sends me daily updates.
https://www.jamesedition.com/real_es...rhood-13133546

Some of the 3 bed, 2 bath flats that we researched in gated communities in the northwestern suburbs had community fees of 2,000-2,500 a month. The fees vary according to the amenities (co-working space, gym, bar, community pool, children's playground, 24-hr security, etc.)

Our free standing home (well, actually a chalet pareado) is not in an urbanización, and we pay no community fees. We purchased further from the city center where prices are lower.

ekscrunchy

WOW! There goes my dream of buying in Madrid! And those common charges??? Took a peek at Idealista...looks as if there is nothing decent for under a million and even then.....most are a lot higher, something you already know!


I suppose I should not be shocked, since we pay even more than you do in Manhattan in a building with NO amenties except a dull-time doorman and a basement laundry area. We do have our own washer/dryer in the apt, but still... No parking (that tops out at $600 a month and it's 4 blocks away!!)
There is NO chance of street parking. But I can dream, right?
How long does it take to get to, for example SOL, by Metro?

Maribel

Hi eks,
Please do look at www.idealista.com and also sign up for the daily updates from James Edition. They're very revealing. It will give you a much better idea.

With idealista, make sure you specify "obra nueva" in the search engine if you don't want to get into renovation, as we didn't want to renovate a darn thing.
Then choose your zone of Madrid, clicking on "mostrar todos" to see all the zones, then choose one.

Trafalgar in Chamberí is a very up-and-coming, super trendy area that we looked at, but the flat was just too tiny, but we moved from a 2,300 square foot house w/garage, and we were looking for a "forever home", not just a pied-a-terre.

I love Calle Santa Engracia in Trafalgar. Here's a new building with 1-2-3 bedroom flats.
https://www.idealista.com/obra-nueva/99169974/

Here's a NYTimes article about Madrid, the new Miami. I've gifted it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/02/w...smid=url-share

ekscrunchy

Maribel,

Thanks so much! My afternoon is now booked, for reading about Madrid apartments! ON another note, I feel sorry for anyone who has rented here in South Florida for the season. We got here 12 December and have had about 3 sunny days, if that, since then. AS I type t his, the wind outside is howling and skies are dark! (I don't' care, really, but many surely do!)


I know that street.. I walked it from the hotel to Sala Despiece! That is a perfect neighborhood. Perfect.