Velocity

Hello/Salut/Ciao/Hej -

I am planning my first trip to Europe from the US. Needless to say, not feasible yet due to pandemic, but I wanted to begin planning for when the pandemic restrictions subside and my fear of contracting COVID via flying has been statistically calmed. That being said, here is my rough plan (albeit most likely not feasible, but that is why I am leaning on the community here for advice)!

In order, these are the countries that I would ideally like to visit:
1- Greece
2- France
3- Switzerland
4- Italy

I understand that it would be very challenging to fit all four into one trip, but time/money is in short supply so I would like to do as much as I can in say 3-4 weeks in 2023 ideally. So with that in mind, France>Switzerland>Italy seems to be the logical approach as travel logistics to Greece will be tough if adding into the mix. Please critique my plans to the utmost degree noting what is feasible, best order of destinations given travel logistics and what is truly worth visiting. Therefore the travel itinerary is such:


VERSION A
VERSION B - skips Paris & Lyon and starts at Geneva - is that more feasible?
VERSION C - skips Geneva & Lausanne going from Paris straight to Marseille - is that more feasible?

FRANCE

PARIS Days 1-4

• Sacre-couer Montmartre
  
• Champs-Élysées / Arc de Triomphe
  
• Louvre
  
• Jardin des plantes
  
• Jardin des Serres d’Auteuil
  
• Jardin des Tuileries
  
• Luxembourg Gardens
  
• Montparnasse Tower
  

VERSAILLES - Day 4

• Palace de versailles
  

LYON - Day 5 (optional)

• Vieux Lyon
  
• Fourvière Basilica
  
• Parc de la Tête d’Or
  
• Ancient Theatre of Fourvière
  
• Lyon Cathedral
  

SWITZERLAND

GENEVA - Days 6-7

• The Bains des Paquis
  
• Jardin Botanique - Villa le Chene
  
• Jardin Botanique Alpin de Meyrin
  
• Vielle Ville
  
• Quartier des Grottes
  
• Carouge
  

LAUSANNE - Day 8

• Olympic Museum
  
• Château d'Ouchy and Promenade
  
• Sauvabelin Tower
  
• Escaliers du Marche
  

FRANCE

GRENOBLE (optional)

• Bastille
  
• Archaeological Museum
  

MARSEILLE - Days 9-10

• Old Port
  
• Basilique Notre-Dame de la Garde
  
• Calanques National Park
  
• La Corniche
  
• Le Panier
  
• La Plaine and Noailles
  
• Boulevard Longchamp
  
• L’Estaque
  
• Calanques
  

CANNES - Days 11-12

• Gorges du Verdon
  
• La Croisette
  
• Marché Forville
  
• La Croix-des-Gardes
  
• Le Suquet
  
• Notre-Dame d'Espérance
  
• Marguerite
  
• Rue d'Antibes
  
• Palm Beach
  
• Plage du Midi
  

NICE - Days 13-14

• Promenade des Anglais
  
• Vieille Ville
  
• Parc de la Colline du Château
  
• Nice Cathedral
  
• Cours Saleya Market
  
• Villefranche-sur-Mer
  
• Cap-Ferrat
  
• Mont Boron
  
• Castle Hill
  
• Plage des Marinieres
  

MONTE CARLO - Days 15-16

• Palais du Prince
  
• Musée Oceanographique
  
• Jardin Exotique
  
• Larvotto Beach
  
• Les Jardins Saint-Martin
  
• Opera de Monte Carlo
  
• Monaco Harbor
  
• Princess Grace Rose Garden
  
• Fort Antoine
  
• Moneghetti District
  
• Old Town
  
• Fontvieille Park
  
• Monte Carlo Country Club
  
• Baia dei Pescatori
  

MENTON - Days 17-18

• Val Rahmeh Botanical Garden
  
• Saint-Michel Basilica
  
• Plage des Sablettes
  
• Plage du Fossan
  
• Jardin Serre de la Madone
  
• Jardins Bioves

ITALY

MILAN (optional)

• Milan Cathedral
  
• Santa Maria delle Grazie
  
• Grand Galleria Vittorio Emanuele II
  
• Castello Sforzesco
  
• Piazza dei Mercanti
  
• Piazza del Duomo
  
• La Scala Opera
  
• Brera district
  
• Naviglio Grande
  
• Torre Branca
  

VENICE (optional)

• St. Mark’s Basilica
  
• Canale Grande
  
• Ponte di Rialto
  
• Venice Lido
  
• Bridge of Sighs
  
• San Giorgio Maggiore
  
• Murano
  
• Chiesa di Santa Maria Assunta
  
• Basilica di Santa Maria della Salute
  

PORTOFINO (optional)

ROME - Days 19-20

• Colosseum
  
• St Peter’s Square
  
• St. Peter’s Basilica
  
• The Pantheon
  
• Trevi Fountain
  
• Spanish Steps
  
• Roman Forum
  
• Sistine Chapel
  
• Piazza Navona
  
• Castle Saint Angelo
  
• Palatine Hill
  
• Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore
  
• Villa Borghese Gardens
  
• Trastevere
  
• Ponte Sant Angelo
  
• Piazza del Popolo
  
• Arch of Constantine
  
• Fontana dei Quattro Fiumi
  

ISCHIA (optional)

CAPRI/POMPEI/SORRENTO - Days 21-24

• Blue Grotto
  
• Ville San Michele
  
• Giardini de Augusto
  
• Monte Solaro
  
• Villa Jovis
  
• Piazzetta di Capri
  
• Marina Piccola
  
• The Faraglioni and Punta Tragara
  
• Ruins of Pompei (multiple locations)
  
• Amalfi Coast
  
• Fiordo di Furore
  
• Spiaggia di Tordigliano
  
• Cala di Mitigliano
  
• Positano
  

ROME/OSTIA - Day 25-26

• Port of Ostia
  
• Baths of Neptune
  

lavandula

Hi Velocity, welcome to Fodors. I think you are trying to pack too much into your days, plus you have also not factored in travel time between destinations (allow a day). These are common 'rookie' mistakes. If you are committed to seeing all of those sights, cut down the number of destinations dramatically or consider joining a tour in the cities of your choice. I see you have given 4 days to Paris and the timing is better there. People here will be able to help you with this, I don't know most of your destinations well enough or recently enough.

Lavandula

Velocity

Hello lavandula - I figured that might be the case, I am very much so a rookie at this having not been of the right financial success until I hit my 30s. That being said, I created two updated versions:

GENEVA>Aix-les-Bains>Gap>Marseille>Cannes>Nice>Menton>Portofino>R ome>Capri/Sorrento>ROME = 23 days
MARSEILLE>Cannes>Nice>Menton>Portofino>Rome>Capri/Sorrento>ROME = 21 days

Are those slightly more feasible? How many days would you advise for each location given destinations at each?

Jean

I also think you're being too optimistic. You definitely need to research travel times to understand the time required, and, if money is in short supply as you say, how much all that moving around will cost. Look into a train pass, but compare the cost of the pass to what point-to-point tickets would total. Sometimes a pass makes sense, but even with a pass there are many trains that require a seat reservation. That can add up if you're taking a lot of trains.

You don't include Milan, Venice and Portofino in your numbered days, so I can't figure out if any are really under consideration.

You don't say what time of year this trip would be, but some of these destinations have high seasons when everything costs more. Switzerland and France are generally more expensive to visit than Italy. The places you want to go to in France are probably some of the more/most expensive. And FWIW, if I was going to Switzerland for 3 days (or less considering travel times), I'd want more bang for my buck than Geneva and Lausanne.

If this itinerary holds through all your research, I recommend you not stay in Rome twice. If you're flying home from Rome, put all your days there at the end of the trip. Also, I don't think you need to stay in four different hotels in order to see Cannes, Nice, MC and Menton. Check travel times between these towns.

Velocity

Thanks @Jean! I have been saving up for years with a safety net of $-5k for this endeavor. I admit that I am very naive about the time tables and money involved as I have just initiated my research in earnest.

Your insight here is very helpful. I have once again made some alterations and have amended my options, please see my spreadsheet here. I noticed that most European cities are very expensive to fly into, so Paris might be the best bet for the region(s) on my itinerary as Marseille, Geneva et al are nearing 2-3x the cost of Paris. I have not entirely factored in lethargy/recuperation time for plane/train commutes yet, so I expect to pack in at least 2-3 more days as buffer for the longer commutes.

OPTION A
<!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placementame-cell;}--> ✈️ GENEVA Day 1-3
~ 2.25hrs commute time 🚂 AIX-LES-BAINS Day 4
~ 5.25hrs commute time 🚂 GAP Day 5
~ 3.75hrs commute time 🚂 MARSEILLE Day 6-7
~2.5hrs commute time 🚂 CANNES Day 7-8
~45mins commute time 🚂 NICE Day 9-10
~45mins commute time 🚂 MONTE CARLO Day 11-12
~30mins commute time 🚂 MENTON Day 13
~4.25hrs commute time 🚂 PORTOFINO Day 14
~ 6hrs commute time 🚂 ROME Day 15-16
~ 4hrs commute time 🚂 CAPRI/POMPEI/SORRENTO Day 11-19
~ 4hrs commute time ✈️ ROME Day 20-21

OPTION B
<!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placementame-cell;}--> ✈️ PARIS Day 1-3
~4hrs commute time ✈️ MARSEILLE Day 4-5
~2.5hrs commute time 🚂 CANNES Day 6-7
~45mins commute time 🚂 NICE Day 8-9
~45mins commute time 🚂 MONTE CARLO Day 10-11
~30mins commute time 🚂 MENTON Day 12
~4.25hrs commute time 🚂 PORTOFINO Day 13
~ 6hrs commute time 🚂 ROME Day 14-15
~ 4hrs commute time 🚂 CAPRI/POMPEI/SORRENTO Day 16-18
~ 4hrs commute time ✈️ ROME Day 19-20
<!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placementame-cell;}-->

Velocity

Thanks @Jean! I confess to being extremely naive about the whole ordeal, from time tables to costs. I am in the very early stages of planning and look to become much more savvy with additional research. Given your sound advice, I have some amendments to my plans (sans costs and perfected itineraries in regards to times). I would plant to make this trip in mid-August to late-September (I know that is touching upon peak season a bit still). Please see my modifications below, from what I can tell Paris is one of the only viable options for airports as the other cites are very expensive, but I kept Geneva as an option in case that were to change. I also know that I need to bake in 2-3 extra days to account for travel fatigue/recuperation for the longer trips (Paris to Marseille and Portofino to Rome for instance).

​​​​​​​Here are my updated plans below:

OPTION A
<!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placementame-cell;}--> ✈️ GENEVA Day 1-3
~ 2.25hrs commute time @$___ 🚂 AIX-LES-BAINS Day 4
~ 5.25hrs commute time 🚂 GAP Day 5
~ 3.75hrs commute time 🚂 MARSEILLE Day 6-7
~2.5hrs commute time 🚂 CANNES Day 7-8
~45mins commute time 🚂 NICE Day 9-10
~45mins commute time 🚂 MONTE CARLO Day 11-12
~30mins commute time 🚂 MENTON Day 13
~4.25hrs commute time 🚂 PORTOFINO Day 14
~ 6hrs commute time 🚂 ROME Day 15-16
~ 4hrs commute time 🚂 CAPRI/POMPEI/SORRENTO Day 11-19
~ 4hrs commute time ✈️ ROME Day 20-21

OPTION B
<!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placementame-cell;}--> ✈️ PARIS Day 1-3
~4hrs commute time @$___ ✈️ MARSEILLE Day 4-5
~2.5hrs commute time 🚂 CANNES Day 6-7
~45mins commute time 🚂 NICE Day 8-9
~45mins commute time 🚂 MONTE CARLO Day 10-11
~30mins commute time 🚂 MENTON Day 12
~4.25hrs commute time 🚂 PORTOFINO Day 13
~ 6hrs commute time 🚂 ROME Day 14-15
~ 4hrs commute time 🚂 CAPRI/POMPEI/SORRENTO Day 16-18
~ 4hrs commute time ✈️ ROME Day 19-20

amy0217

Ok, I am an ambitious planner and yours, well, wow.
I am not an expert here, but my husband and I did a a couple trips in this area and we loved it. Here is what I would do (along these lines) because we loved all these places- Paris then TCG to Provence. Then Anncey France (bike around the lake!), then Chamonix (take the cable car up and hike) then Wengen Switzerland (at least 4 days here- go to First Mountain), then drive to Northern Italy (we did cheese festival and wine tasting in Neive in Piedmont region via Lake Como but once you are in Northern Italy you could go toward the east vs. west (as we did) and do northern area or Venice and if you have time, Greece. I haven't been to Greece but I haven't had 3 weeks either. Have so much fun!

Velocity

<!--td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placementame-cell;}-->Thanks @Jean! I confess to being extremely naive about the whole ordeal, from time tables to costs. I am in the very early stages of planning and look to become much more savvy with additional research. Given your sound advice, I have some amendments to my plans (sans costs and perfected itineraries in regards to times). I would plant to make this trip in mid-August to late-September (I know that is touching upon peak season a bit still). Please see my modifications below, from what I can tell Paris is one of the only viable options for airports as the other cites are very expensive, but I kept Geneva as an option in case that were to change. I also know that I need to bake in 2-3 extra days to account for travel fatigue/recuperation for the longer trips (Paris to Marseille and Portofino to Rome for instance).

Here are my updated plans below:

OPTION A
✈️ GENEVA Day 1-3
~ 2.25hrs commute time @$___ 🚂 AIX-LES-BAINS Day 4
~ 5.25hrs commute time 🚂 GAP Day 5
~ 3.75hrs commute time 🚂 MARSEILLE Day 6-7
~2.5hrs commute time 🚂 CANNES Day 7-8
~45mins commute time 🚂 NICE Day 9-10
~45mins commute time 🚂 MONTE CARLO Day 11-12
~30mins commute time 🚂 MENTON Day 13
~4.25hrs commute time 🚂 PORTOFINO Day 14
~ 6hrs commute time 🚂 ROME Day 15-16
~ 4hrs commute time 🚂 CAPRI/POMPEI/SORRENTO Day 11-19
~ 4hrs commute time ✈️ ROME Day 20-21

OPTION B
✈️ PARIS Day 1-3
~4hrs commute time @$___ ✈️ MARSEILLE Day 4-5
~2.5hrs commute time 🚂 CANNES Day 6-7
~45mins commute time 🚂 NICE Day 8-9
~45mins commute time 🚂 MONTE CARLO Day 10-11
~30mins commute time 🚂 MENTON Day 12
~4.25hrs commute time 🚂 PORTOFINO Day 13
~ 6hrs commute time 🚂 ROME Day 14-15
~ 4hrs commute time 🚂 CAPRI/POMPEI/SORRENTO Day 16-18
~ 4hrs commute time ✈️ ROME Day 19-20 A

janisj

Welcome to Fodors. I haven't waded through all your various permutations but in the very first paragraph of the very first post you say "I understand that it would be very challenging to fit all four into one trip, but time/money is in short supply so I would like to do as much as I can in say 3-4 weeks" . That is the main reason you are trying to do waaaay too much in too little time.

The more dashing around, jumping from place to place . . . the LESS you get to see and do (and all that transport costs $$/€€). Every hour spent packing/unpacking/checking out/checking in/ traveling to/from train stations/and on trains - are hours you don't see/do anything.

A train trip of 4.25 hours actually eats up almost an entire day. Starting at 0900 with breakfast, checking out and getting to the station, catching a 10:30 or 11 AM train. Arrive next destination 3:15 PM, get to hotel 3:30-ish PM, check in/unpack/freshen up by say 4:30PM and you are finally ready to start exploring your new city - most of the day is shot.

So to make your time and money go farther -- simplify, simplify, simplify - cut back the number of destinations to actually spend more time IN places, not traveling BETWEEN places.

Traveler_Nick

If your budget is tight first step is to drop your Swiss stops. If it's just the mountains remember the Alps are in France,Italy,Austria and Germany but they all cost less without the Swiss franc.

Second step is to ask yourself do you really want to see these places? The south of France beaches are fun but they aren't tropical beaches. Cannes? Film festival if you're interested but otherwise put your money towards something else- Same thing with Monaco. If you're really intent on those areas maybe think about a day trip out of Nice. But four days between the two seems way over the top.

Last thing. Just the first two things on your Rome list (Colosseum and the Vatican ) can easily take up two days.

Sassafrass

Great advice already from Janisj and Traveler_Nick.
I commend you for your honesty about your experience and your willingness to seek advice.
You still have lots of time to evaluate and re-evaluate your choices, so do not worry about getting everything pinned down right away. Do you have some guide books? Internet is great, but a good guide book can also be good for overall planning. What special interests do you have that people might make suggestions about? Example: you seem to be very interested in gardens. What else?
Since you want to go to Paris anyway, it will be great if flights work there. Sometimes people get cheap flights to a place in which they have no interest, and then have to waste precious time and spend more money getting to the place they want to be. You can book “multi-city”, into Paris and out of Rome to avoid the cost of backtracking to Paris.
Depending on the place, sometimes I like to spend the day sightseeing, then take the train to my next destination in time for dinner and to be there fresh for the next day. OTOH, if it is a place with great night life, or a favorite restaurant, I might want one more evening there.
To make things simpler, I suggest for now, you plan your itinerary as days or nights in a place, not including all of the things you wish to see there. Keep those in mind when planning the amount of time you want there. Make travel days separate, so you are sure not to be overly optimistic about thinking they are sightseeing days.
Example
Day 1: Arrive Paris
Days 2, 3, 4, 5: Paris, including day trip to Versailles
Day 6: Travel to?
Days 7 - 8: ?
Day 9: travel to ?

Just some thoughts and possibilities. You certainly won’t have time for all of them and might prefer others.
Visit Versailles on day 3 or 4.
Depart Paris in late afternoon on Day 5, by TGV train to Avignon in time for dinner. Spend a couple of days seeing Arles and other sights around Avignon, or Aix before Marseille.
I know it means a change of hotels and that might not work for you, but our favorite arrival in Paris was this. We arrived and went straight on to Versailles, leisurely visiting the town and grounds that afternoon, and the chateau early the next morning, then headed into Paris by around noon.

Have a great time planning your adventure.

Sassafrass

Frankly, I would consider ditching Southern France in August and head to someplace between Paris and Venice with mountains or lakes and good flight or train connections from Paris and to Venice.

neckervd

Why do you want to visit cities only?
Most of the gems are just in between.
Some remarks:
Paris is much more interesting than Geneva and all other French cities you mention.
But if you want to have a look at Geneva on your way from Paris to the South: it's just 3 hrs by train and faster than the commuter ride from Paris to the airport plus the flight.
Geneva - Aix-les-Bains is only 1 hr by train. But there isn't much to see and to do at Aix-les-Bains unless day trips to other places like Annecy and the Mont Blanc area that you could visit from Geneva as well.
Lyon would be a good day trip destination too, but it would be logistically easier to stay at Lyon and to daytrip to Aix (if even!).
You waste your time with Gap, a place I would never visit if I had 3 weeks only. A dierect train ride from Geneva or Aix-les-Bains to Aix-e-Provence or Marseille would last 3 1/2 - 4 hrs.
I hope you have your reasons to not to visit the gems in this area: Avignon/Orange/Nimes, https://en.grottechauvet2ardeche.com/
A whole week for Côte d'Azur (Cannes-Nice-Monte Catlo-Menton) is way too much.
You waste a lot of time by staying at Rome twice (transfers, check in, check out, etc.). Take a direct train from the Portofino area to Naples, for example Rapallo dp 13.04 - Naples ar 20.29.

Jean

Your new Options A and B still don't appeal to me...

Every place has a certain amount of appeal but needs to be considered with the travel time required and how you could otherwise have spent that time.

I agree with neckervd about a week in the Cote d'Azur, and I really can't see staying in 4 different hotels between Cannes and Menton. You've already noted the travel times between, so all those hotel changes make no sense...

Lodging in Portofino in August will be insanely expensive. You might find something reasonable nearby, but that will add to your travel time to and from Portofino. Also consider how much time you'll actually have in Portofino...

I also agree with neckervd about heading to Naples before Rome... However, you will have already spent a week in seaside locations, and my preference would be to leave Naples/Sorrento/Pompeii and Capri for another trip when you would have enough time to also visit the Amalfi Coast towns. It seems a shame to travel all that way and not see Positano, Amalfi, Ravello, etc. Pompeii could be intolerably hot in August, and if Pompeii is of particular interest you'll want to also visit the archeology museum in Naples (where all the Pompeii artifacts are housed). I'm not sure your plan allows time for that.

Velocity

Ciao Vik -

Thanks for the info. So from what I can tell $5k is a little light on the budget side of things, eh? In your opinion what would I need, ballpark estimate? I do not need or care to partake in fine-dining or expensive social settings for this trip and hope to utilize airbnbs the entire time. So with that being said, $225 per diem seem fair?

Yes, I can easily skip Alps then this time around. Also, for timing, I basically just want everything to be warm enough for swimming and shorts/tee as my apparel (how American of me I know, comfort trumps fashion in my humble opinion though, ha). September or even October are fine with me if the weather is still warm there, as it can be here in Oregon, New Jersey and California (places that I have lived). So I could probably fly into Paris then fetch a train that goes direct to Nice or would I still have to pass through Marseille? I have heard that Marseille is a bit shady. I am a fit male so I would not be too concerned, but nevertheless not worth the trouble.

So new itinerary given your tips:

1. Fly into Paris and spend four days in Paris (hotel stay / base 1)
2. Spend one day of travel to Nice
3. Spend seven days in Nice (hotel stay / base 2) to hit Cannes, Antibes, Menton, Monaco
4. Spend one day of travel to Naples - via air same as your suggestion for Venice or was that Venice specific?
5. Spend five days in Naples (hotel stay / base 3) to hit Pompeii, Sorrento, Capri, Positano, Nerano, Amalfi - how much of that list is feasible, and if having to whittle down, what are the must-haves from that list?
6. Spend four days in Rome (hotel stay / base 4)
7. Fly from Rome back to US roughly one day

Thanks for all of your help, much appreciated!


Cheers -

Zak

Velocity

Apologies, having trouble posting replies here and the wrong message went through, this was intended for jean and everybody else that have provided amazing advice.

Here is my planning sheet that I have been running in the background to fine-tune aspects of the proposed trip. By no means complete yet, but I am making progress thanks to you guys!

The site states that I cannot post URLs until I have sent 10 messages, so please copy and paste this URL https : //tinyurl[dot] com/ ypuwevja (combine and remove [dot] with .