offshoreyoce5165

Hello!

First time posting although I've been skulking around for a while. We are a couple in our 40s with a decent amount of travel experience around continental Europe, and road tripping through the USA in a variety of conditions. We will be visiting the UK over the 2021/22 Christmas and New Year's holidays. We understand that there are a variety of factors (inclement weather, short daylight hours, lack of trains during Christmas, slow roads, closures, etc.) that perhaps make this a less than ideal time to visit. However, due to our careers, this is the only time available to the both of us to go, and the trip IS happening. We are easy and light travelers, and can roll with most punches. A prior attempt at asking for assistance on another forum resulted in a 95% re-hashing of what a "horrible time to visit the UK" it is (possibly true?), but very little in the way of suggestions on making the best of it. From what I've seen, this place seems a lot friendlier...

We have our flights purchased. Additionally, I have made hotel reservations for most of the trip, but all include free cancellation should we want to change our itinerary over the coming months. If anyone has the time, here's what I've got for the itinerary so far:

DAY ONE (Thurs, 12/16) - arrive LHR 1130 - STAY LONDON
DAY TWO (Fri, 12/17) - STAY LONDON
DAY THREE (Sat, 12/18) - possible day trip - STAY LONDON
DAY FOUR (Sun, 12/19) - STAY LONDON
DAY FIVE (Mon, 12/20) - rent car at LHR, Stonehenge, Roman Baths - STAY BATH
DAY SIX (Tue, 12/21) - (Roman Baths if no time on Monday), see more of Bath or daytrip - STAY BATH
DAY SEVEN (Wed, 12/22) - drive through villages of the Cotswolds - STAY COTSWOLDS/BROADWAY
DAY EIGHT (Thursday, 12/23) - drive up to Stratford, then down to Blenheim for tour & lights - STAY COTSWOLDS/BROADWAY
DAY NINE (Christmas Eve) - long drive to York (with possible stop(s) en route? - STAY YORK
DAY TEN (Christmas Day) - ? - STAY YORK
DAY ELEVEN (Boxing Day) - STAY YORK
DAY TWELVE (Monday, 12/27) - ?
DAY THIRTEEN (Tuesday, 12/28) - ?
DAY FOURTEEN (Wednesday 12/29) - ? - return car - STAY EDINBURGH
DAY FIFTEEN (Thursday, 12/30) - STAY EDINBURGH
DAY SIXTEEN (NYE) - STAY EDINBURGH
DAY SEVENTEEN (NYD) - STAY EDINBURGH
DAY EIGHTEEN (Sunday, 1/2/21) - Fly Home

A few questions:

1) Without listing specific locations, some of the things we are interested in this trip include: History, Historic Architecture, Atmosphere, Pubs, Roaring Fires, Christmas stuff(?), Castles, Manor Houses, Cobbled Streets, etc.....Would this itinerary fit the bill? Is it as doable as it seems? Any recommendations on sights, cities, hotels, driving routes, changes to itinerary, etc? Feel free to blow it up!

2) There's currently a two day blank spot in between York and Edinburgh. Any suggestions? I'm looking at a Durham/Northumberland route or a Yorkshire Dales/ Lake District route. Either a bad idea? Maybe just getting up to Edinburgh quicker and adding time there? I would like to see Hadrian's Wall. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions for routes that time of year?

I got on here with more questions, but I feel as if I've written too much already and they've escaped me at the moment.

If anyone takes the time to review this for a first time poster, thank you so much!

Kandace_York

I don't know how qualified I am to answer your questions, but I've been to about half these places, all in the shoulder or off season.

I loved York and if it were me, I'd probably just spend a couple more days there or leave it "York-unscheduled" so you have some wiggle room in your schedule. Especially in December, north of London, I hear that the weather can be unpredictable. What luxury, then, to spend that day or those couple days relaxing in your hotel or hostel! If the weather is good, you can always explore some of the area by train, if not further exploration of York.

I also find that later in a trip (I'm "of a certain age"), my pace slows a bit and I need more time than I might have needed a week earlier.

A couple more tips - leave the first and last days "unscheduled" when you arrive at, and depart from, a place. Plan a minimum of 3 nights in one place, because packing is a drag. And London always, always has things to do, so time there is always well spent. I love London.

Enjoy your trip!

offshoreyoce5165

Thanks for the quick response! Adding time to York is something I haven't even thought of for some reason. Definitely will be thinking on it now.

Thank you!

janisj

Welcome to Fodors.

Random thoughts:

You have allowed almost no time at all for London. Just two full days if you take the potential day trip. Even without the day trip - 3 days is nothing for London, especially during the holidays. With all the lights, special events, theatre, pantos, music, museums etc I'd want a very minimum of five full days (6 nights)

Don't count on any activities on Dec 16, or Jan 2 so you have a total of 16 usable days.

Unless Bath and Stonehenge are 'musts' I'd drop Bath and the Cotswolds (and this is from someone who LOVES the Cotswolds and visit whenever I can) The Cotswolds are not a fun place if the weather is awful whereas cities are great in winter. Instead of Blenheim lights consider Christmas at Kew, or visiting Hampton Court Palace.

And if you do drop the Cotswolds, I'd also forget about renting a car. Consider something like this (just one variation to get you thinking):

• Dec 16 - 23 stay in London. Maybe a day trip to Oxford or Cambridge or Bath or Windsor. Train to York Dec 24 morning
• Dec 24 - 25 Stay in York. Train to Durham Dec 26 morning
• Dec 26 stay in Durham. Train to Edinburgh anytime Dec 27
• Stay Edinburgh Dec 27 - Jan 1 with one or even two day trips.
• Fly home Jan Jan 2

There are commercial day tours from London that hit Stonehenge and Bath so that is an option if you want to squeeze them in.

Also there are great day tours from Edinburgh with Rabbies. Small groups in mini vans and wonderful guides https://www.rabbies.com/en/scotland-tours. Or -- day tripping to Stirling or Glasgow or St Andrews is easy on your own by train from Edinburgh. (Stirling is about 45 mins and Glasgow a little over an hour, and St Andrews is a 1 hour train to Leuchars and local bus or taxi on to St Andrews)

janisj

Meant to add . . . if you really really want to stay in Bath you could cut a day from London and a day from Edinburgh and fit in Bath by taking a train to Bath, stay 2 nights, then train to York which is easy. A 15 minute hop over to Bristol then changing trains and 4 hours later you are in central Bath.

Just fiddle days/stays so you are not taking a train after about noon on Christmas Eve or on Christmas Day.

offshoreyoce5165

Thanks janisj. London is great, I've been there once before, and I have thought hard about extending our time there on this trip - even as far as building an itinerary very similar to the one you suggested. (It may still be the one that we go with!) With the amount of major sights/experiences I've done on my prior trip, I felt somewhat comfortable with the amount of time allotted for London in my posted itinerary, perhaps without a day trip though.

On the mentioned prior London trip I did one of those Bath/Stonehenge day tours you mentioned. So at least as far as I'm concerned, Bath and Stonehenge are not "musts". I do have concerns about the Bath/Cotswolds portion: a) I've already seen Bath (albeit for only a few hours) and b) if the weather is very uncooperative, I'm worried about boredom in the Cotswolds (to be frank). I thought perhaps that a drive through the towns of the Cotswolds of day one, and a trip to Stratford and Blenheim on day two would negate any negatives of possible bad weather on a typical Cotswolds stay.

We were shooting for an itinerary that would give the both of us a good taste of the variety in the UK. And a road trip seemed the best way to access many of the things (Blenheim Palace, Hadrian's Wall, as examples) that we'd be disappointed to not see.

But overall, the only musts we have are London and Edinburgh (by choice and default), and York. So perhaps we will ultimately do something akin to your suggestion (thank you!), and save the other stuff for another time.......but doesn't that get old saying that! ha

janisj

"And a road trip seemed the best way to access many of the things (Blenheim Palace, Hadrian's Wall, as examples) that we'd be disappointed to not see."

I love LOVE road trips (check out my proflie photo -- that's me leading the pack )

For some context, I'm a Californian ( so do a lot of road trips ) who lived in the UK for about 5 years and return as often as possible (and have driven to/through every county in England/Wales/Scotland). So I am not anti road trip in any way. But me personally . . . I'd never ever plan a UK Road trip in December. When I lived there I did do long-ish distance drives in winter - however I lived there and could change plans or cancel at the last minute if a winter storm came in (which was often). Visitors don't have that luxury

Between the very short days and potentially nasty weather . . . I just think a city centric trip makes more sense in December. I for sure wouldn't plan on Hadrian's Wall unless I felt very very lucky.

With the new info you've provided using my idea as a jumping off point, you could cut London a day or two and add some time to Edinburgh and take one of the 2 or 3 day tours with Rabbies to see some rural bits of Scotland . . . and have a local doing the driving/coping with the road conditions.

So something like 5 or 6 days in London (with or without a day trip ), a couple of days in York (3 days if you wanted to fit in Castle Howard but I'm not 100% sure what their plans are for the holiday season this year), and the rest in Scotland. But if the weather turns really vile/ugly/scary you'd maybe be stuck in Edinburgh for longer than you wanted if the tours are postponed/cancelled/modified

Heimdall

Janis wrote:

”You have allowed almost no time at all for London. Just two full days if you take the potential day trip. Even without the day trip - 3 days is nothing for London, especially during the holidays. With all the lights, special events, theatre, pantos, music, museums etc I'd want a very minimum of five full days (6 nights)

Don't count on any activities on Dec 16, or Jan 2 so you have a total of 16 usable days.”

Those activities Janis mentioned are things that draw British residents to London over and over again. Since you’ve been to London before, and have seen most of the major sights, why not visit like a local this time and see why London is not just for foreign tourists?

I’m sure janisj meant Dec 26 rather than “Dec 16”.

bilboburgler

Dashing out will look at your plan later with your crazy non European dates... As a Brit the idea of a long journey on Christmas Eve fills me with dread. I've lost count of the numbers of times family members have got stuck in traffic as half the country does the annual migration for Christmas. A long journey would be even worse.

bilboburgler

Just a few thoughts
Durham is a good idea between the two cities. Train should be good. You don't really need a car in York itself in fact getting rid of it can be a real pain and it limits where you can stay in central York. If you want to go to a Church Service at Christmas/Eve you may need to get your hotel to book you in. Now you may not be a Christian but the Evening service is special and is worth going to just for the lights and spectacle.

nonconformist2

I would add a bit more time to York if you want to actually do any sightseeing/museums etc. Christmas Day itself and most likely Boxing Day you'll be restricted to walking around the streets.

There's often a minimum stay over Christmas.

Gardyloo

A few thoughts of my own...

First, I presume you have accommodation booked for Edinburgh, and if not, that's job no. 1. It's possible (likely?) that the colossal Hogmanay festival will be back and at full strength this time, or at least more participatory than 2020-21, and if so, then the capital will be crowded, joyous, noisy and gobs of fun. And if not, well, it's still Edinburgh...

I was looking at your proposed schedule and the thought crossed my mind that you might think about a more eastern driving route, taking into account the (slightly to considerably) drier climate (also chillier sometimes) on the North Sea side of the country. Just as a thought experiment, have a look at this map and google some of the places on it. https://goo.gl/maps/xE8ndXJEQKnQPw5j8

This would obviously eliminate Bath and the Cotswolds, but would substitute in their place Cambridge and Lincoln, along with opportunity to visit, say, some East Anglia villages, the splendid Ely cathedral, and to it with generally shorter drive times. You could even take the train from London to Cambridge (easy and frequent service) and collect a rental car there rather than trying to navigate out of the big city.

I understand the impulse to suggest the train, and that's certainly a valid option, but my own preferences are to drive. The car can be luggage storage and protection from the weather as well as a means of seeing more than train stations and wet urban streets.

Cambridge and Lincoln are both beautiful walking towns, weather permitting, and there's certainly no shortage of historic and interesting things to see and do in the towns, But with a vehicle you can drive around and explore things, even if the weather is poor; have lunch at some open-fire pub, then head back for the evening.

You mentioned Hadrian's Wall, so I've included a side trip to Housteads on the map. You could easily fit it in between Durham and my recommended stopping point on the Northumberland coast, either Bamburgh or the Holy Island of Lindisfarne. Similarly, with a base in York and a car (and a number of quality hotels near the old core of the town have parking facilities) you could day trip out to the Dales or North York moors, again, weather permitting.

Here's a possible revised schedule for you to consider, again, just as a thought experiment. Overnight locations listed.16-Dec London

17-Dec London

18-Dec London

19-Dec London

20-Dec London or Cambridge

21-Dec Cambridge

22-Dec Cambridge

23-Dec Lincoln

24-Dec York

25-Dec York

26-Dec York

27-Dec Durham

28-Dec Bamburgh

29-Dec Edinburgh

30-Dec Edinburgh

31-Dec Edinburgh

1-Jan Edinburgh

2-Jan Home

janisj

Heimdall: "I’m sure janisj meant Dec 26 rather than “Dec 16”.

I actually did mean Dec. 16th because that's their arrival day and any activities or sites could be problematic. But yes, the 24th/25th/26th do need to have some advance planning/organization

janisj

Gardyloo's suggestion is very good but I'd still not be set on driving . . . or at least have a very strong plan B in case the weather goes pear shaped.

I have been to Hadrian's Wall / Northumberland in December - twice. One was lovely - cold but crisp and mostly clear. The other time the forecast was semi-decent so we took off from our home in Oxfordshire (in a Morgan plus 4 with a Scottie and Airedale) . . . and were basically snowed in and had to move accommodations because the heat went out.

offshoreyoce5165

Wow everyone! Thank you for helping out!! It's truly given me a lot to consider so far.

1) Haha, sorry if my dates were awkward for some of you. When I was plugging them in I actually debated what format I should use!

2) I'm gonna scrap the Cotswolds and Bath. I do want to get to the Cotswolds.....eventually. And Bath I was doing mainly for my significant other anyway, since Bath and Stonehenge would be completely new to her. Was trying to put together a well balanced trip for the both of us. I believe I still can without the two. Thanks for the advice on that to all of you above!

3) Yes, the first hotel I booked was for four nights in Edinburgh. I'm glad I did! Prices have already gone up.

4) Honestly, weather doesn't frighten me that much. We certainly aren't going there with rosy expectations about it. Expect the worst and be thankful for the best. And place like Hadrian's Wall, I envisioned as a stop and see, not a hike or a grand exploration. Also, although we are Californian's, we have a handful of winters spent traversing the frozen tundra of Wyoming and Montana, so we feel pretty comfortable in most conditions. Traffic, on the other hand, does frighten me. We certainly have enough of that here!! So traffic on a driving day on the 24th is food for thought.

5) I like both of the itinerary ideas suggested. Gardyloo's idea is very in line with what and why I was thinking about a driving trip. I actually had an itinerary starting with a car out of Oxford, but maybe the east is the way to go. Seems more of a straight shot.
And I know the wife would like Janis' more London-centric/daytrip itinerary, and I'm kind of leaning that way myself now - it's just hard to get past my original vision.

Thanks again, all of you, seriously! Over my next days off I'm gonna play with both of the above ideas and pencil some revised plans out. I'll post them here, and would appreciate another look if any of you don't mind.

In the meantime, if anyone reads this and thinks of ideas, feel free!

bilboburgler

If you have not planned an Oxford or a Cambridge visit you are missing a treat and either is far more interesting than Bath which has limited appeal unless you are into American quilts (the Bath University American department is pretty good) The Baths, the shape of a couple of lines of houses and a canal/river is about all you have in that town. Durham (ok it is built onto a volcano plug) and has been there a fair bit longer than Bath at least has a castle and cathedral.

O&C have history in spades and if you time your visits correctly are worth a full long day. Ely cathedral is best approached on any side road or cycle path as it rises (small but perfectly formed) from what would have been an enormous marsh so while not actually much to do, it is a great visit.

The length of day this far north can be confusing for some visitor. Darkness comes upon us about 3:30 before afternoon tea and yet stays with us until 8:30 in the morning or so it feels to me (timetables are available on t'internet) so you need to stretch your day by planning indoor activities . It isn't really the weather that depresses us it is just the "grey" that can hang around for weeks.

Heimdall

There is excellent train service between Cambridge and Ely, if you don’t want to drive, less than 20 minutes between the two.

Kandace_York

A word on weather - it would be helpful to post in degrees, humidity, wind speeds, snow depth, etc., instead of saying, "Winters are miserable."

Living in northern Ohio, USA, winter starts mid-December (at the latest) and stretches through February, at least. Often winter weather is more likely to start in November and stretch through March. Although we get less snow now, we often go weeks without seeing temps as high as 30 degrees Fahrenheit. It's typical to shiver through subzero (F.) temps for days or weeks on end.

Meanwhile, when we talk about winter travel, we *hear" people say, "It's so cold, don't come to England!", but when I look up the weather records, it's 30-40 degrees F. and there are 6 hours of daylight, which is a big improvement over what we live with, plus by mid-March, even in Scotland, your spring flowers are starting to bloom - weeks before we can hope for the same.

It may well be that what you're enduring in the U.S. is worse than what you'll experience in the U.K.

bilboburgler

Good point Kandace. MIserable of course is not a type of weather. It is more a mind set. Here we say "no such thing as bad weather only the wrong clothing".

laurie_ann

I second the version of the trip that is not driving. Or if you feel like you want to see the countryside rent a car for just one day from York or Edinburgh. Except probably on the actual holiday days you can even do that without any advance booking. But do not dismiss the driving on the "wrong" side of the road. We have done in it in UK and Ireland many times but not sure would want to in any kind of inclement weather.

Also an option I don't think I saw in the above is to book a Christmas stay at a castle or country house type of lodging. It's not cheap but many of them do special activities and meals around that time. And are beautifully decorated. Here are some examples:

https://www.tripsavvy.com/holiday-ce...-hotel-4050874